Curse

Seron Dalar · Sep 17, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Er... at that time we weren't level 20. We were level 12 or so and anyway could only go out in groups of 4.

Rurik just had sense. Adelbern obviously didn't, although he somehow manages to live long enough to kill some Titans with you at the end. You never exactly saw the entire Charr army, but if you want to think about it like this, imagine every Charr you've ever seen on a big field. That'd be a part of it. For the game's purposes, the Charr are infinite; in theory, they're obviously not infinite, but have massive numbers anyway. Regardless, Rurik was doing what he thought was best for his people-- leading them to safety. Adelbern presumably thought he was doing what was best for the people as well-- defending the kingdom to the death. They just had different ways of looking at it. I guess you have a different way of looking at it than me.

The dwarves were going to hold the Shiverpeaks against the Charr. The Charr would have never made it through, so Kryta was much safer than Ascalon, which the Charr had somehow managed to utterly ruin every part of. (How did they do that anyway?)

KvanCetre · Sep 17, 2005, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

The dwarves were going to hold the Shiverpeaks against the Charr. The Charr would have never made it through, so Kryta was much safer than Ascalon, which the Charr had somehow managed to utterly ruin every part of. (How did they do that anyway?)

I... I don't even know how to respond to this. How did they ruin ascalon?! Did you skip the entire cutscene after going out with Rurik where they summon giant meteor like objects to SEAR THE ENTIRE NATION!?

Seron Dalar · Sep 17, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Ah yeah... that. I dunno, it's been a while. I don't know how exactly they summoned thousands of meteors to destroy an entire country, though.

GreatLich · Sep 17, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by KvanCetre

I... I don't even know how to respond to this. How did they ruin ascalon?! Did you skip the entire cutscene after going out with Rurik where they summon giant meteor like objects to SEAR THE ENTIRE NATION!?

I think the person you're responding to meant that as in: how the hell did the charr get those kind of magics! and if the charr can do it why don't the kingdoms of men Sear the charr right back, ( they'd call it the Charring most likely ;p)

edit: lol, looks like I was wrong, and he really didn't remember...

KvanCetre · Sep 17, 2005, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

Ah yeah... that. I dunno, it's been a while. I don't know how exactly they summoned thousands of meteors to destroy an entire country, though.

DUH, its a PLOT HOLE

edit: this begs the question: Why did they only sear the world once?

GreatLich · Sep 17, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Cause we killed all charr that had any knowledge of how to sear? I mean all those bosses from pre-searing get dead atleast once...

edit: hmm, wait... there's a 2 year gap in time between pre- and post-searing... the charr could've been bombing away like lunatics in that time...

Silmor · Sep 17, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I still haven't heard any explanation of what the Charr motivation is. They're painted as savage brutes that only lust for killing, yet at the same time they manage to summon near-apocalyptic magical powers. Why are they invading Ascalon, Kryta and Orr in the first place? Do they fear the developing power of mankind? Is this a crusade of sorts? Are they just looking for a place under the sun - and if so, what was wrong with their original lands? Why was being blocked off by the Great Northern Wall (occupying over half of Ascalon already) unacceptable to them?

Even if Ascalon was utterly lost due to seriously overwhelming Charr forces, my problem with Rurik was that he had no contingency plan other than just moving into a different country: he's basically surrendering unconditionally, and saving what he can. He's not calling for help, he's not trying to come up with any tactical strategies (other than retreating), all he seems to be doing is repeating how impossible it all is, which considering his burning spirit when rescuing some captured soldiers across the wall (they've been there for years, why weren't they ever rescued before? Why were the Charr bothering to keep them alive in the first place?) is rather peculiar. I still feel he's a quitter.

Technically speaking, I don't see how the Shiverpeaks could hold off what Ascalon couldn't - it's been mentioned that the Charr are weaker without their 'flame', which would lead one to believe the Shiverpeaks would be a natural barrier for them, but at the same time they seemed to have managed to get to Kryta and even Orr without too much trouble before, so there must be a way for them to traverse the mountains. The reason I think why Kryta is the place to seek refuge is because the White Mantle (and their Unseen Gods, guess the Charr aren't infused) managed to actually defeat the Charr before, so perhaps the Charr will think twice before launching another invasion there.

I always had the idea that the searing itself was more a terraforming activity than just a mechanism to bring down a wall - either that, or whoever was launching those crystals had some really poor aim. The dry, ashen wasteland that is post-searing Ascalon seems perfect to accomodate the Charr race, so I suspect it's more than just a pleasant byproduct of their siege weapon.

Seron Dalar · Sep 17, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Yeah... that begs the question, where exactly are the Charr coming from? I thought they were north of Ascalon and east of Kryta/the Shiverpeaks, but if so, how could they possibly get to Orr, which was southwest of Ascalon?

Well, it's not so much that the Shiverpeaks are cold... it's that it's a huge mountain range with only... one or two traversable passes, as far as I can remember, and they're heavily fortified and defended. It's nearly impossible to take a well-defended mountain pass head-on, and there's really not much way to get around it (except however the hell they got to Kryta/Orr... which should be explained.)

I think Rurik believed they'd exhausted all other options. They'd been fighting the Charr for two whole years since the Searing, and Rurik had been with them, presumably (considering his AI) leading every charge. But the Charr kept coming and the Ascalons hadn't made much headway, so I think he's decided there really isn't any hope, despite his best efforts, so yes, he is just saving what he can and retreating to Kryta.

Ahh... but didn't they call for help? Ambassador Kain, or whatever his name was, was a Krytan envoy sent, as I recall, to ask Adelbern if Ascalon wanted Krytan aid. Rurik came out and talked to him, saying how he'd love Krytan aid, but Adelbern refused to accept it because of his pride, as well as leftover animosity from the wars of previous years. Then there's Orr, but Orr of course was destroyed. Rurik is seeing the foolhardiness of his father and sees no other way to save his people than to retreat to Kryta.

Kyten · Sep 17, 2005, 05:20 AM // 05:20

i think Adelbern had the right idea, when he refuses help from ambassador kain when i was jsut starting i was like "wtf that idiot, he knows we need help" but now that im like done i think he had the right idea because he knows how cruel the white mantle are and he doesnt want a cult(basically) helping kill the charr cause he knows later theyre gonna have the mursaat slam ascalon afterward, if i didnt know any better i think king adelbern represented a character that had gone through the game
had anyone else in the beginning, maybe first read the manuscript, and saw those fire islands and thought "thats where the charr first came from and thats where the bloodstones are" because from what ive seen the bloodstones dont do much, wee 4 times the rez length, same with all i think, havent finished game yet but im just on ROF so if the bloodstones ever get reassembled if they dont in the last mish, that would be fun, like making a GW event to destroy/disassemble the bloodstone

Khan · Sep 17, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

I thought Rurik was evl from the start. Fueled my leading the chosen into the Shiverpeaks and throught the frost gate
which makes you encounter the White Mantle, who lead to the Shining Blade, who is lead unbeknownst by the Lich and an evil little drawf. Then you end up fighting Rurik again, come on know.

And another point, the Vizier, I hated this part of the story. You knew he was evil once he even wanted the Scepter of Orr, hmm scepter that raises the dead. Anet didn't even try to hide thie easily foretellable "plot twist" i'll call it that since that was its intention. The Lich is holding the scepter in the cinemas, I mean come on. There is only two wasy you couldn't figure this out, A)Your plain dumb B)You didn't watch any of the story.

Seron Dalar · Sep 17, 2005, 05:37 AM // 05:37

^Yes, the vizier was stupid in general. They lose points for that guy.

^^Rurik wasn't evil. He did what he thought was best. He can't really help it if he's being forced to fight you by his Lich master. It's not really something you can avoid, if you're undead. As for fear of the White Mantle, I personally don't think that factored into it, although it is certainly possible.

Silmor · Sep 17, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

Well, it's not so much that the Shiverpeaks are cold... it's that it's a huge mountain range with only... one or two traversable passes, as far as I can remember, and they're heavily fortified and defended. It's nearly impossible to take a well-defended mountain pass head-on, and there's really not much way to get around it (except however the hell they got to Kryta/Orr... which should be explained.)

Well, the Stone Summit seemed to be doing a decent job breaking the defensive positions of the Deldrimor Dwarves through siege/attrition, although it did seem a pretty balanced war waiting for a friendly hand to tip the scales (gee). Ofcourse we don't know what the relationship between the Charr and the Stone Summit was, whether the Charr would be interested in tactical alliances in the first place, they don't really seem to be good with sharing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

I think Rurik believed they'd exhausted all other options. They'd been fighting the Charr for two whole years since the Searing, and Rurik had been with them, presumably (considering his AI) leading every charge. But the Charr kept coming and the Ascalons hadn't made much headway, so I think he's decided there really isn't any hope, despite his best efforts, so yes, he is just saving what he can and retreating to Kryta.

It actually appears the fight with the Charr had been continuing for ages already, it was the reason for the Great Northern Wall to be originally built. I don't precisely recall any indication that Ascalon felt increased pressure from the Charr before the searing, other than a feeling that the Charr were up to something, but it's not really clear if the invasion was already in progress at the time of the searing, or if the searing itself was the opening blow to a renewed offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

Ahh... but didn't they call for help? Ambassador Kain, or whatever his name was, was a Krytan envoy sent, as I recall, to ask Adelbern if Ascalon wanted Krytan aid. Rurik came out and talked to him, saying how he'd love Krytan aid, but Adelbern refused to accept it because of his pride, as well as leftover animosity from the wars of previous years. Then there's Orr, but Orr of course was destroyed. Rurik is seeing the foolhardiness of his father and sees no other way to save his people than to retreat to Kryta.

There's a lot more going on with Ambassador Zain than simple diplomacy; as an agent from the White Mantle I don't believe he had much to gain from an alliance with Ascalon, and the Troublesome Artifact (Eldritch Sextant) quest hints at some ulterior motives. Besides, him handing out blankets to poor little orphans (well, getting his trusty FedEx agents to hand them out for him) is suspiciously over the top as "I'm only here to help" statement. King Adelbern could've trusted the Krytans to aid him, but it wouldn't have been illogical for him to distrust Zain even if he didn't have qualms with Krytans in general.

Maybe we weren't supposed to know that the Vizier was the sole survivor from Orr, the place that he single-handedly nuked to the ground (in self-defense! sure, there was a little bit of friendly fire...), but with a reputation like that, how the heck can Evennia consider him as an ally that she pretty much bases the entire future of the Shining Blade on? Oh right, because she's a snotty airhead with an obnoxious voice to match her personality.

Thock · Sep 17, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by NilePenguin

God, best bug Ever.

The two best parts of the game were when that Stone Summit dwarf killed Rurik, and when the player kills him again. Now, there's three best parts.

Yeah about that dwarf.....Is it just me, or did he sound like he had a bad Mexican accent? If the cutscene didnt show the dwarf, i would have swore that Cheech was about to deliver the final blow with his sundering bong of fortitude.

(No offence or racism intended. No Mexican dwarves were harmed in this production.)

Scutilla · Sep 22, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Yes...when the army of Gwens come to attack. Move over Jango Fetts, here come the real Clone Wars.

I'm not sure which is worse... multiple Ruriks or multiple Gwens. *runs in fear*

Eskimo Bob · Sep 22, 2005, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Well to answer the question of why do the charr hate humans. If I remember correctly I read a lore page saying that the gods created the charr first. Then they created man. Charr where naturaly strong but men were born weak. Men lived in fear until they found steel. They forged weapons and armor and shoved the charr back. The charr retreated to a northern desert or something.

About the charr making it to orr and that. I belive the charr managed to breach (or before the wall was built) the wall and just spearheaded through ascalon, over the mountains, through kryta and to the gates of orr. Where the vizier didn't want to see his nation fall into the charrs hands, destroyed the charr army, along with his home.

The stone summit hate all other beings besides dwarves, so no chance in a charr - stone summit alliance.

Selerious · Sep 22, 2005, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eskimo Bob

About the charr making it to orr and that. I belive the charr managed to breach (or before the wall was built) the wall and just spearheaded through ascalon, over the mountains, through kryta and to the gates of orr. Where the vizier didn't want to see his nation fall into the charrs hands, destroyed the charr army, along with his home.

The charr actually broke through at the time of the searing not before, and for those that were saying that the shiverpeaks were going to be a barrier to the charr, you forget the charr atacked Kryta the same time as Ascalon and orr through a pass far north in their lands (when talking to a Dwarf about borliss pass), I think Rurik was just heading to kryta to a country that still had the resources and millitary manpower to fend off the charr.

Shusky · Sep 22, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

There was a thread a while back, about what actually happened during GW. The conclusion was:

Quote:

1. Kryta, Orr and Ascalon fight over some ancient stones that are supposed to be half-forgotten legends. Kryta and Orr can presumably fight using their fleets. Ascalon probably just awkwardly sits there, isolated by a desert and huge mountains, and sends impolite letters to both adversaries.
2. Charr invade from the north. Three kingdoms stop their wars and proceed to do nothing constructive about that.
3. Charr decide to nuke Ascalon using their Titan-powered Crystal Canons of Doom. They fire them right next to the Great Wall, possibly destroying 90% of their own race in the process, and certainly their mages and cannons. Ascalonians randomly survive or have their flutes broken.
4. Although Ascalon rallies and holds, the Charr magically appear in Kryta and Orr. In Kryta, they are beaten by White Mantle (no wonder, WM is on average 10 levels above Charr). Orr randomly explodes. Krytans comment on a really cold summer over their afternoon teas. Orrians, despite being blown to smithereens, compose themselves to a functional undead army and make it to Kryta. Either by swimming or by sneaking through Droknar's Forge. Well, dwarves aren't too bright anyway.
5. King Adelbern exiles Rurik during a particularily nasty mood swing, just after Rurik emerges victorious from a major battle using an ancient badass artifact. Rurik is sheepishly followed by our Heroes. And Farmer Dirk with his precious hogs.
6. Rurik manages to die in the mountains, slain by a random Dwarf faction. Players rejoice, since that means the end of over-dramatic incoherent one-liners.
7. Our heroes joyfully abondon the rest of refugees because those nice WM ask them to kill some undead and genocide Tengus.
8. Our heroes join the Shining Blade, the most incompetent group of rebels ever. They proceed to kill a WM army that suddenly appeared in Maguuma. SB randomly allies with Vizier, because people who explode their entire countries are valuable allies.
9. After a lot of sneaking and genociding, our heroes learn they have to Ascend. Ascending involves killing lots and lots of half-divine, benevolent snakes. The Heroes are helped by ghosts, who claim they never seen a living human in centuries, despite standing about two meters from the everpresent Xunlai Agents. Xunlai Guild has its agents everywhere and knows exactly what's happening, but apparently is too lazy to help saving the world from fiery doom. Who knows.
10. Our heroes beat themselves. Then they enter a grain of sand to kill the Facet Of Boring Mission. At the end, they kill a dragon or vice versa, that doesn't influence anything whatsoever.
11. Our heroes find out that they must now genocide a race called the Mursaat and joyfully travel north.
12. Our heroes help a caffeinated and drunk aggro master Jalis kill the Stone Summit. Somewhere along the way they also save the Shining Blade, but who the hell gives half a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about SB anyway. Also, a tragic sacrifice of some character that made 2 cameos 60 hours prior takes place.
13. Oh, and they find an Alien. The Alien doesn't do any cool tricks though (like emerging from Dorian's ripped chest). However, it slaps our heroes with some spectral goo that makes them more competent in genociding mursaat.
14. Our Heroes learn that they must travel to the other side of the world to finish the genocides. They are cleverly manipulated by the Vizier. Glint knows about it, but is probably still pissed off about these eggs.
15. Our heroes kill stuff. Then they open a door and find out that the Vizier was evil. If they played Age of Mythology, they would know that there are ALWAYS titans locked behind giant doors in the middle of hell, but alas.
16. In order to fix their monumental RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO-up, our heroes kill the lich. Thanks to the First Great Cliche Rule Of Evil Liars Exploding Once The Main Villian Dies, the volcano explodes. Glint explains to them that they have to at once, immediatly, and quickly run like hell during a half-an-hour long speech.
17. Our heroes sail to the sunset and drink ale.

The Charr had something to do with Lich and Titans, but we don't exactly know what

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clusmas

Great. Just what we need. Twice as many devourers.

*Suicides*

Jakerius · Sep 22, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

How are these regarded as spoilers?

John Waffletord · Sep 22, 2005, 12:14 PM // 12:14

because it talks about how you have to kill undead prince rurik, and if you arent too the point where he dies, the story is ruined! Or if you arent to the part where you have to kill him, then its not such a surprise when you finally do.

Phades · Sep 23, 2005, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by KvanCetre

DUH, its a PLOT HOLE

edit: this begs the question: Why did they only sear the world once?

Why did they sear only one small section of the world, when they were advancing through all of it? Also, how did they cross the shiverpeaks at all, considering the nature of fire and ice in addition to spagetti like passages though heavily defended dwarven strongholds?